Ecclesiastes 4:12 "if one can overpower him who is alone, two can resist him. A cord of three strands is not quickly torn apart." This blog is a forum for 3 of the Paris brothers to discuss stuff. Everyone is welcome to join in the discussion--in the abundance of counselors there is victory -Proverbs 11:14
A recent article on John Piper's site re: masturbation and missions got me thinking about my stand on it. Do you agree with Piper or James Dobson? What does the Bible say regarding it? Is it normal?
posted by Todd Paris @ 8:20 AM
15 Comments:
Todd,
I can say that I never ever thought of putting the two topics together as Piper did. I dare say that this title alone will generate more hits from a wider variety of people than ever before.
I do belive that Piper has taken a more conservative view of the topic (not surprising the path that he has taken and the crowd that he runs with). I always like to remind myself that Dr Dobson is a psychologist, not a pastor, not a Bible scholar.
DOBSONS ARTICLE: I believe that Dobson does end his article in a very open ended, non-dogmatic way. I wish that he had not included the discusion that he had with his dad in the article. It clouds the issue. I am glad that his dad talked with him about it. I do acknowledge that there are some huge ramifications with young men. If the statistics quoted are accurate (interesting note -- both men quote the same stats with different conclusions) then there is definitely a place for this discussion. However, in order for Dobson to claim universality, doesn't he need to show that this behavior is cross-sultural? I dare say that the exposure in this culture to image is siginficantly higher than most.
PIPER: I really apprecaite Piper's focus on imaging. I believe that he has nailed the issue. Again, we have easy access. I am not talking about just the internet. Our Christian sisters are often chief culprits in the presentation of "teasers". Yet with our saturation and our imaginations, we can turn almost anything around. Imaginations and thoughts are fertile ground for sinning.
Conclusions:
1. I am once again reminded that I am not alone (I have other brothers who have or who do struggle with it) in the fight for the control of my mind and body
2. I am not alone in the fight for the control of my mind and body (I have the one who has provided the means for more than conqueror status)
3. The fight is right. I believe that while we may not have chapter and verse "thou shalt not masturbate" we do have principle that points to a mind renewed, putting off the things that you used to do, setting apart your members for acts of righteousness, proper view of women, etc. etc.
4. The fight is worth it. I believe that anything that is so critical that it hampers young men from going into ministry is worth fighting against.
5. Todd has the gift of instigation. NO wait that's not on the official list -- make that exhortation. :) Thanks for the link. I printed a copy of both for my files.
Mike
Guys, I have also found
"Every Young Man's Battle" to be helpful as a resource. They do a good job of discussing "eye bouncing" in an image saturated culture.
Todd,
Sin is normal isn't it?
Mike
Todd,
Do you have a book of controversial topics that you draw from or do these questions just come to you?
Gonna have to think some more about this one and get back to ya....
A recent article on John Piper's site re: masturbation and missions got me thinking about my stand on it. Do you agree with Piper or James Dobson? What does the Bible say regarding it? Is it normal?
Hmm....I finally had a chance to read both of these articles. They both make some valid points, I think. Unfortunately, I don't have any clearer picture of this topic than before I read the articles...
As the article mentions, the bible has very little to say about this specific topic. They also mention that almost every male has/ does masturbate. I guess that makes it "normal". However, many of the things related to masturbation are definitely sin (lust via pornography; through media or personal encounters).
I guess you could put this in the file of "If you're saturated with God (through prayer, bible reading, meditation, etc...), this 'hot topic' probably would never even come near the surface".
I guess I'll post my thoughts on the articles themselves now.
Piper: Imagery is certainly a big thing for guys. It is nearly impossible to avoid inappropriate images every day; even if you avoid all media related avenues. In addition, our brains have a much easier time recalling these images than things like important dates or grocery lists. It is nearly impossible to masturbate without recalling one or more of these images (as Piper mentions). At that point, I would focus on the lust aspect (desiring that which is not yours) rather than the making women into sexual object aspect (I think God made all of us to be sexual).
Dobson: He points out that he would not "invade that private world" unless he felt that there was some reason to do so. But then he mentions that his father discussed the topic with him. I don't know which approach is right....I have opted for the open discussion approach and have included the topic in discussions regarding puberty. I would like my kids to know that they can discuss any topic without embarrassment. He was certainly embarrassed when the topic came up. Why is that, if I never taught him to be embarrassed? I think I'm creating more questions than I'm answering!
Anyway, gotta get back to work...Interesting topic, Todd.
Wow good responses bros. No I don't have a book Thad, I must just be gifted as Mike said or I just post what questions I have. A wise man once said "without questions there is no learning"
Yes mike sin is normal but should it be normal for a believer/ follower of Christ?
God did not intend sex to be a solo act or He would never have created Eve.
Masturbation is selfish.
Masturbation in the New Test I believe would be included in the word translated impurity ie:Eph 5:3-5 if that is the case then vs 5 would indicate that one who habitually masturbates has no place in the kingdom!
Oh and Mike, our culture is not the worst for exposure to image, although it is bad, I have been in worse(ie: full nude billboards in Brazil). You just need to get out more.
So Todd, I should go to Brazil on a missions trip to be exposed to the full out nudity billboards or to the Netherlands where prostitutes display their wares in the window (I believe that was the report from our sailor bro) so that I can claim "I get out more"???
I think that it probably is a thanks to God that I don't have that kind of bombardment.
Mike
my point was that you shouldn't make blanket statements regarding the rest of the world if you have never been outside of N america. What you see on tv/movies is not always accurate portrayal.
what???? You mean I can't believe everything I see on TV? How can this be?!?!?!?
both of you knuckleheads need to go to South Africa with me for some eye opening. What is stopping you?
....If you buy the tickets....they will come...
Let me see. I'm a knucklehead if I don't go and I'm a bigger knucklehead if I make up some excuse why not to go? PLan the trip. How can I say no. To avoid it now would only prove Todd's pointed point. What is the opportunity? I'm ready to step out! Plan the trip. I would love to do a Dad and lads trip. Dad and Todd have overseas ministry experience. Let's plan something to S Africa. Can you plan to have me preach? Can you lay some ground work? Remember, I have to start a year in advance to get in shape to climb anything greater than 500' elevation.
In case anyone has fallen asleep, I love the fact that this possibility comes out of a topic of masturbation and missions??? Go figure! What does that suggest about the topic (just to close the thread out)
Mike
Mike maybe what it is saying is the reason you aren't involved in missions is do to some besetting sin in your life such as masturbation?
The trip is already planned. South Africa end of the summer. I can make sure you preach. Or I should say that Scott will make sure that you do. three times on Sunday at least. Dad is welcome to.
So, is debt a besetting sin?
Is fear a besetting sin?
Is financial lack a besetting sin?
Is unpreparedness a besetting sin?
PLS POST OR EMAIL DETAILS ABOUT THE S. AFRICA TRIP.
Mike
Yes, it can be. Yes, it can be. No its an excuse. and no its another excuse.
If those things kept me back I never would have gone and wouldn't go on the next one.
Are those same things keeping you from being a missionary every day?
Details for the South Africa trip can be found here: http://www.climbingforchrist.org/Default.aspx?tabid=2138
You can raise support through C4C.
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